What if American football and e-commerce had more in common than we think? Join us as we chat with Chris Hall, the Ecom Cowboy himself, who reveals how his experiences in football at the University of Texas shaped his e-commerce journey, starting as a coffee roaster and eventually leading to his role as head of marketing for Bruce Bolt, a high-end batting glove company. Discover how the lessons learned from sports can translate into valuable skills for success in the world of online business.
In this engaging conversation, Chris gives us an insider's look into the innovative glove designs that set Bruce Bolt apart, emphasizing the importance of the right equipment for sports performance. We also dive into the challenges and strategies behind creating successful product media for e-commerce, prioritizing profitability, and maximizing sales through website clarity, conversions, and user-generated content. Learn the secrets to making your product stand out in a crowded market!
Finally, we dive deep into the world of marketing strategy. Chris shares his expertise on running successful Facebook ad campaigns, the power of product diversification, and the significance of having a reliable product. Don't miss this episode packed with valuable insights, tips, and anecdotes from Chris's unique journey in e-commerce and sports. Tune in now and level up your e-commerce game!
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I'm Chris Hall. I style myself as the Ecom cowboy on Twitter and some of you are probably wondering Do I actually sound like this? I do, this is my accent.
Speaker 2:Accent. My, i definitely, like I'm on on a podcast with like some kind of TV star, some kind of All right, well, i'll take it.
Speaker 1:I'll take it. I head up marketing for Bruce Bolt. Bruce Bolt makes high-end, premium batting gloves for baseball players. If you're not in that world, then Then now you know we make batting gloves. I got my whole start in e-commerce By becoming a coffee roaster. I knew nothing about coffee whatsoever. I played football my whole life me and one of my teammates. After graduation, we somehow discovered we had a connection with an Ethiopian coffee farm. Discover that. You know, finn, it's all about who you know. You know a friend of a friend and Who knows, somehow we got this buddy in Ethiopia who's starting a coffee farm. And You know, we looked at the numbers a little bit. There's a nice margin there. And then so we figured out how to roast coffee and then we figured out how to sell it on the internet. Really, really, that's that's how it all started. Eventually, you know we, we sold out of that. We partnered with another company. They bought all our subscribers and then got into agency life and and now I'm back in house with Bruce Bolt and and I love it. And I especially love the D2C e-commerce community on Twitter and in other places incredible place to learn and connect and grow.
Speaker 2:Everyone's just a monster in that community. Like you look at any other communities in other industries And, yeah, you have people that have discussions, but these are, these are ambitious, fueled, entrepreneurial, smart, sharp, you know, cut throat to some degree, people all in one space. I mean we are, we've got to be, some of the most intelligent people on this planet. I think I'm Yeah you said it I'll take it Talks me about football, right, american football, soccer, for me, is obviously the English sport of choice, other than cricket, but no one really plays that, what some people do, but you don't want to meet those people. Talk to me about American football. What level did you get to and Why do we need so many teams for different things? Yeah, defensive team, offensive team, it's like.
Speaker 1:That's true. It's a highly specialized sport at this point. It wasn't always that way, but American ingenuity, i suppose, has made it that way as the decades have gone by. It's it's America's. It's not America's pastime, but it's America's current time. It's the most popular sport in America. It's the Roman gladiatorial version of Of those games in America in 2023. It's for the tough guys. It's for the guys that want to bang heads. Now, maybe some of those guys And now you know, maybe some of those guys will go into MMA now that MMA has emerged. But I Played. I started as a sixth grader. I played all the way up through high school. I got a scholarship to play at the University of Texas. Oh Yeah, that may not mean that much to you.
Speaker 2:I know it does.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I knew that you and me were gonna be friends. I could just tell.
Speaker 2:I could just tell.
Speaker 1:Play. I got a. I got a scholarship, i got a full scholarship to play football at the University of Texas. We won. We won a national championship while I was there. We lost another national championship while I was there. Eventually was was an all-american as an offensive lineman and Decided, decided thereafter that it was time to close that chapter and and, and you know, start some new adventures. But that formative experience, those formative years They learned me to push myself. It learned me to achieve goals. It learned me to to work on a team and be a team player. And all of that comes, comes into play when it comes, when it comes to business thereafter.
Speaker 2:So you big guy Offensive lineman, i mean, don't be rude, but I'm looking at you now and you're looking like you know you could run a marathon if you wanted to. I know can't do that, it's.
Speaker 1:I've lost a few pounds, a few LBs since then. I at my largest. I was 300 pounds, flat, wow, and I was in the best shape of my life. I was an incredible shape at 300 pounds. Now I was still a little guy. When we had guys that I played next to that would, without trying way you know, 340, 335, 340 pounds. So I was still a little guy. But you know, after you, after you finish your playing days, you, you don't want to keep all that, all that excess weight on. You know, find a, find a wife, you know, get a life. So I wanted to drop a few pounds and and extend my years on the earth here a little bit.
Speaker 2:I mean there's so many synergies between Higher level sports and running and being in business. I think it is the best teacher Of so many things. But do you feel like you carry some of that mentality, some of that rigor and training into what you do on a daily basis now?
Speaker 1:Totally. I think that e-commerce especially. I think e-commerce is like a, an adulting Grown-up beyond our years of athleticism Version. I mean, you're still in your years of athleticism, finn. I know you're cross-fitting it up and you're killing it on the daily, but I'm out of my prime at this point. I think that e-commerce, especially, it's like video games for real life and it's like sports for real life, past your years of athleticism, because there's constantly a scoreboard. When you log in to Shopify, you see what the revenue is. When you log into the Facebook Ads manager, you see what the cost has been those statistics and those measures. There's constantly a scoreboard Changing and what you want to do is make sure that number in your bank account goes up at the end of the day. So I think all of those things baked into our industry, it's just a fit. It's a fit for gamers, it's a fit for athletes. to me That's a great thing.
Speaker 2:I like the progression of sports as well in that you probably started when you when I think you said However young you are when you sort of got into it, you probably had some free weights in your room or something and you lifted those and maybe went out for a jog or two And then contrast to the end of your career. I mean that could be a scrappy start up and at the end you were probably training in some of the best facilities in the world Nutrition you know, and all that kind of stuff around you to optimize that performance. I love that trajectory. I think that's very similar in in business as well camp anyway, did you prefer playing at the high end of it or did you prefer when you were just discovering the sport, the scrappy low?
Speaker 1:You know what the lessons that I learned and the experiences I had Early on. They paved the way for where I ended up. Obviously, if you can play in front of a hundred thousand people on a weekly basis, you want to. You know, if you can come home with a, with a giant ring at the end of the day, you want to. You know, you want to come home with things like that.
Speaker 2:I see them on the show. Porn stars. You know the porn broker. Yeah right, hey I. All those rings are like man, they look glamorous. I.
Speaker 1:They are, but you, you know you never wear them. You know I don't know where you wear them or what you do with them, but they're nice to have. You know if you can get there. Obviously, obviously, obviously, you want to get there. Those memories early on they paved the way for a bright and Positive and successful future, and so I couldn't give up either one. But at the end of the day I'm glad that I made it to the level that I did and got to do it with the guys that I got to play, with, those who Made for incredible memories and friendships that have continued here after and bought copious amounts of easy open coffee Yeah, that's right Which we can only be thankful for.
Speaker 2:So that was your first venture. So you did that. And then. So how can you talk me through how you've ended up at Bruce Bolt? What was that? So you did? the coffee company again sold that. And then how did you actually get involved with Bruce Bolt?
Speaker 1:So after I got out of my e-commerce brand 40 acres coffee after we, you know, parted ways there and started a new adventure, i got on board with my friend, joe Putnam at Conversion Engine great agency, and the great thing about working in an agency is that you get to learn a lot of lessons really fast. You know, i had my experience with a subscription business at 40 acres and to some extent you know retail et cetera, but that was really a subscription business. Once I got to Conversion Engine, i got to learn about all kind of various businesses and became a brand strategist working on the creative on a daily basis, basically became a kind of an outsourced CMO to some extent for a number of these DTC brands that we were working with. Great thing is you learn a lot of lessons. You do get to learn lessons with other people's money. That's nice for you, it's good, it's helpful, you know. But a couple years, a couple years later, i really wanted to transition in-house and just work on one brand all the time instead of being spread thin. Opportunity at Bruce Bolt came up. You may not know this Fin, but our founder at Bruce Bolt, he started this company, made this product when he was all of 16 years old. He's a wacky. At 16 years old he makes the best batting gloves in baseball.
Speaker 2:I was drinking pop alcohol in local parks.
Speaker 1:He's crushing it. He told his dad hey, i can drive now, give me some gas money. Dad said, no, not giving you any money, go get a job or start a business. And so, you know, his dad was a serial entrepreneur and kind of helped him, you know, find his footing. And then there, our founder. He really did develop this incredible product. Well, he's a local kid. Well, he was a local kid. He's not a kid anymore, but he was a local kid and started this successful business. Youtube, one viral video, launches everything. We're having real success, but a viral video really kind of launched things into the stratosphere, so to speak, and incredible growth happened incredibly fast. And before you know it, there was an opportunity for someone to come and head up marketing. And you know my athletic background, my athletic background here in Austin. The funny thing that we found out later on was that Bear and his dad Guard used to come to my games. They would come to UT and you know watch. Yeah, it was very serendipitous, but anyway, all of those things helped And it's been, it's been such a joy to be a part of. I tweeted this the other day and I really think it's true When you can work with people that you like, when you like working with people and you work with them all the time. It just makes such a difference. It makes such a difference So incredible people, incredible product, incredible team. It's been, it's been a wonderful experience to be on.
Speaker 2:Rewind really is table stakes for any e-commerce store. It backs your store up consistently and it offers you an undo button just in case something was to go wrong on your store which, let's be honest, can happen. And it also provides you a staging environment so that you can have a carbon copy of your live environment to do all your good testing on your QA, try new ideas and not have to worry about breaking something on the live environment. Check code conflicts, app conflicts, everything in between. It's a must have. Go and install it. For those that don't know, i am launching my own little thing on the side through a necessity of hurting my hands in the CrossFit gym. I mention it every, pretty much every episode, but if you don't know by now, i'm going to ram it down the straight. I do CrossFit And in CrossFit in gymnastics as well you grab a bar and then you try as hard as you can to create as much friction between that bra and your hands until your hands are essentially just bone and all the skin is gone. So we use these things grips over the top and the idea is that that prevents that from happening. They're not very effective. You always end up with really bad ripped hands. So, fed up with that, i decided I'm going to do something about it. A bit of fun turned into a little bit more and we are going to launch some grips in that space. Now I want to seize this opportunity and be incredibly selfish and find out from the man who is currently peddling other hand-based accessories what I can do to be better when I go to market with my grip. So this episode I'm going to be asking Chris all about some of the things that he's done in different categories in marketing, in advertising, what's work, what's not, selfishly for my own gain. Hope that's okay with you, absolutely it is Finn.
Speaker 1:That's what we want. We want you to succeed on this thing, brother.
Speaker 2:Can you give everyone just quick overview of the actual the hero product of Bruce Bolt? Just give us a kind of visual, a painting of what that is.
Speaker 1:Yes, so Bruce Bolt makes batting gloves. For those who don't know, oftentimes baseball players will wear a specialty kind of glove when they go up to hit the ball. That's when they're on offense and hopefully they get on base and eventually score some runs. Those gloves help them grip the bat, they help give them support at the wrist And I would even say that the batter's box and that moment of hitting solo in front of the crowd on behalf of your team, it's a. For me it was a scary moment. It's a very important time. You're there, solo on the stage, so to speak, and you need the right equipment to give you the confidence and increase performance there. And if you can hit the ball three out of 10 times, you're a Hall of Famer. It's probably the most difficult thing to do in sports, to be honest, is to hit.
Speaker 2:I can't even comprehend it. Like when I see on Facebook watch yeah, i see his Facebook watch. I enjoy Facebook watch, so don't clown on Facebook watch. But when you see these people, they can do mind tricks with the ball. They sort of dislocate their wrist, flick the ball and it does zigzags in the air and then just hits that square thing behind it. I mean you can tell I know a huge amount about baseball. I just can't understand how they're able to bend the laws of physics and have these balls do these different things. I can't even imagine what that's like to face as a batsman in that situation. That's right.
Speaker 1:That's right. And to do it at 90 plus miles per hour, to do it at 100 plus miles per hour, it's insane. So what Bear our founder did was he made a better batting glove out of better materials, high-end materials, not synthetic leather, but actual leather. Worked on the construction of that glove so that players could have strong support at the wrist without actually taping their wrist. He did that through changing the articulation of the stitching and changing the kind of stitching so that the glove fits better And it just so happens to also look really cool, so that helps too. Yeah, you've got to check these things out.
Speaker 2:There's somewhere between kind of Marvel superhero and a very well-made, put-together sturdy glove. They're pretty incredible. I imagine there's going to be some awesome licensing deals coming up with you guys with some of these films, and possibly sports teams as well, because they just fit right in. I mean yeah, striking is the word I would use. Go and check them out if you haven't already seen them, and they instantly make you want a pair. I mean I don't play baseball but I'd love to own a pair of these The Maltes Because of the look. I mean they're sick. You walk up. I mean if I was facing, if I was pitching someone wearing these gloves, i mean it's going to catch my attention. I mean it's going to be put off. So I guess in that way it also has an advantage. Why the white trousers? Why is it always white trousers?
Speaker 1:Well, it can be white or gray film, and there are even some teams that have a light blue, white blue pants or trousers, as you call them, which I love. I love batsmen and I love trousers. Those are great terms. Those are great terms. I'm so sorry. I love it. I love it. I love it. So yeah, you know white, gray, little light blue. Sometimes you know the Padres, i think they've got some tan, but mostly it's white and gray.
Speaker 2:That's kind of specific rules around it. It's just sort of traditional or some people varying from tradition. But if it's generally speaking, i mean baseball is a very. They look great, they've got hats, they've got their jerseys and you know they're well put together. Guys. They're not. You know they take their appearance seriously. So I guess that's why these clubs work so well is because it's kind of a statement how and what you wear.
Speaker 1:Exactly, it's an opportunity for just a little drip, just a little, just a little flex. You know the design, the colors, you know it's an opportunity there, and so lots, of, lots of players like to take it, so talk to me a bit about the, the type, the style.
Speaker 2:I mean, do you as a marketing, as a marketing guy, do you have much input in the future look and development of the products, in that you have kind of access to The customer, direct access to feedback, or do you just leave that up to bear?
Speaker 1:Well, there he really is the creative genius And that's that's always been his role. Of course he's played a ton of roles, but I really think that's that were, that that's where he thrives And that's where his genius within the company comes, because he's lived the role and then the person that we're selling to and serving in our business, Because he's been there and done it, He knows what players are going to like, what they're going to want, And he kind of always seems to be on the trend of what's next in the baseball world. So that really is his zone of genius. You know. He asks sometimes. You know hey, what do you think of this? I get a little input there. Mostly. Mostly, my role and responsibility comes with messaging, with positioning ourselves rightly for our customers, with finding those customers and various platforms on the Internet And then ultimately serving them well and giving them the kind of experience that we would want that makes them want to come back and buy again. That's that's mostly. That's mostly where I lie. I think, oh, go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 2:I was going to. I was just going to say on the physical side of product. So one thing that I'm working out right now is in my world the grips that exist aren't particularly differentiated in style. They all look very similar, similar colorways. I mean really just black, with one key color. Looking at the Bruce Bolt gobs, you have a number of scoos, primarily differentiated by design and color. One thing I'm trying to work out is what's an op? you know what's the optimal Colorways to launch with. You're gonna do the classic black and we do maybe a white, but should I have a hot pink? Should I have you know, and how many of those should? should I? should I roll out When we first start or should I keep it simple? one, two, three, maybe options? What would you suggest I?
Speaker 1:would suggest that you Talk with your customers and and here's the thing, here's the thing that I think you've done, fin, rightly is that you've picked the right customers. I think a huge key to success in Ecommerce, in DTC, in any business, is really picking the right customers, or the right community and Community, i think, is really it's not around building something around your product. Hey, everybody like me and I want to gather you around my product and build something awesome around my product. That's not the way that we've taken. What we've done is we've found an existing community and Then discovered how can we serve them best. A cult like community We all know that that's exactly what CrossFit is. A cult like community. That's all in. That's committed. If you can make an innovative product for a cult like community, your Shopify notifications will never cease to ring. They'll just keep going and going and going. So you, you've picked the right community, fin. That's what I, that's what I love about what you're doing.
Speaker 2:Oh, what sports in general? right, we have a lot of die-hard. If you, if you like a sport, you're probably, and there's a good portion of your life that's dedicated to it.
Speaker 1:I think you still love all right of course, of course. Yeah, i want to watch it every weekend in the fall And I wish they'd play it year-round so I could watch it in the spring. Yeah, you gotta. You gotta pick the right customers, which you've done. And then I Love what you've discovered here among the grips. They all generally look the same. They're all about the same color. What I would love to see is you getting an in real life with them, which I know that you are. I'd love to see you get some samples of Potential products that you're making, be they pink, neon, green, white, black, i mean, etc. Across the spectrum. Is it color? is it type? is it design on the grip? Is it the Way the grip is constructed? is it the type of material that's made? all the different kinds of variations, living in, Embedding yourself in that community, giving them the stuff, taking out your iPhone, filming them react to it All of that is magic. That doesn't cost you a penny, other than you know how much it costs you to Be in that CrossFit community. There's cost you a lot of blood, sweat and tears. I know that Cheap. They know how to charge. They're not cheap. Even in Bali They're not cheap, but I was, they were more expensive over here.
Speaker 2:It's great, oh yeah. Yeah, it's huge, huge amount of money. But the thing is like you buy so much more than just the district. Going to the gym, i knew, like said, you're buying into a community. Really it's kind of like a some kind of Caught, like church or something, where you donate half your life earnings or something like that. You know you sort of just you sign up and you're in and that's it. You committed the life and you got a hand over your cash.
Speaker 1:But yeah, no 100 and and the wonderful thing is that if you can get those prototypes initially at Bruce Bolt, i think bear went through 11 variations before Settled on 11 different. Let's change this, let's try that. And then he'd take it to his Baseball team. You know, he's still in high school, he's still playing high school baseball at the time. He'd take his prototypes, take him to the team. Okay, try this, wear this. Batting practice in the game. What do you like? when he not like? they did 11 different variations of that before they settled on their first glove that they were actually Going to ask people money for, but, because he had lived in and with that community, involved them in the process, taking the feedback, taking those signals, and iterated on the design. Once it was ready to launch. He had a product that people were gonna buy, and so that's what I would love to see, finn. I'd love to see you there on. When do you work out? Do you work out like five in the morning, man? when do you work out, bro?
Speaker 2:Every damn day I'm wearing my stuff. Right now I'm ready to do you straight after this. I'm gone Every day. I love it Well, i Well every day. But yeah, i want to see.
Speaker 1:I want to see somebody following you in there with their iPhone And then you passing out the things and people just grunting and sweating and grinding and do it all They do and then, oh yeah, would you? oh man, i love how this and my hands feel great. You know All of that kind of simple, straightforward, genuine feedback. Probably what you'll glean from that is the exact marketing messaging You need to use in your ads what you're ready to sell. So I I love that kind of scrappy, in real life Approach of embedding yourself into the community. It costs you very little, if it costs you anything at all, and what it does is it paves the way for real success when you're ready to launch.
Speaker 2:Where would you put that content? Would you use that content outwardly, like going into the gym?
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, i would use it. I would absolutely use it outwardly if, if I were launching This business, i would get my iPhone. I'd get my samples, i'd give it to everybody at the gym, i'd make friends with everybody there, i'd be everybody's best friend. I'd get the okay from the instructor, from the instructor, to film it and then I would get all of that footage. I'd get their genuine reactions afterward. If you've got a product that people can People have a visible reaction to, you've got to get that and get it in that kind of authentic iPhone only kind of way in real life. I think that when it comes to launching businesses like this, you got to pick the right customer, you've got to solve the right problem, you've got to make the right product and you got to sell it the right way. And That D to C scrappy, bootstrapping way is doing it yourself in real life, not sitting behind a keyboard, but actually taking the physical product to people, them asking questions. You get the chance to see them process and react to it. You get to hear what they don't like, the things that they would probably never send you in an email. You get to see it happen live and you get real Information that can help you succeed in your business. That way, all of those things Allow you. They give you a great advantage. They give you a great advantage over Other companies that may be larger and bigger and have more resources, but they sit 50 degrees away from their audience. They've never lived and been embedded in it and they don't really know, they don't feel Why this community is buying this product. It gives you a great advantage, i think, and so I would take that I'd use it on social. I'd see what what performs on social and then I try to turn it into an ad. You know, pick, pick one. I'd probably start with Facebook and then just focus on Instagram. Just do that, you know. Do you have the time and way to do anything and everything? Probably not early on. Just pick Facebook and do Instagram.
Speaker 2:Focus on those things, see what content resonates and then iterate from there and see what actually makes you money Hell yeah, so that's gonna be an awesome thread, because I'm gonna click that little bit out and then the next bit underneath it Will be a video of me doing exactly that in the gym.
Speaker 1:I want to see it bro.
Speaker 2:And I'm gonna drop. I'm gonna drop and say Chris told me to this, i'm gonna get a t-shirt printed it and be like instructed by Chris or something, just so we can Remember the moment. But yeah for sure, and so would you also recommend them doing. So that's the scrappy content, that's the stuff that's gonna go out, and so she was great feedback loops, like you said, all those good things. Would you also recommend doing a slightly more polished version like ghost do? I know you drink ghost as well, so I know you know who I'm talking about here. Holden's my main dog. Go for a holden, if you don't already the creative junior. But would you also recommend maybe doing a kind of more polished YouTube Series, building the brand type stuff, or is that just a little bit like? okay, maybe you know, focus on sales first. I.
Speaker 1:Think it all depends on if you can afford it, and You can, if you're making sales or if you've got a stockpile, you know. If you've got a war chest, that that you can play with, then great, then great. But My job at Bruce Bolt is to always make sure that money's going up into the right. That's what I focus on. That's what I focus on and, to be honest, a lot of times I'm just being honest here, finn. I mean, we're in the tree of trust. Can I can, can I be honest here? Can I tell the truth? show for sure, we're in the tree. It's just it's you and me. We're here in the tree of trust. A Lot of times. For me, what that means is Organic social. A lot of times it's it's toward the end of my list, not that it's not on the list, you know. Or? or YouTube now, that being said, i'm investing heavily into making us some YouTube content. But, you know, a lot of times it falls down toward the end of my list because, at the end of the day, what I'm judged on is how much money is going into those bank accounts. And People may like my story, but if that story doesn't lead them to buy the product then then something is amiss, and so I've always I always Prioritize whatever we're filming, wherever we're doing it, i'm always prioritizing how can I make this an awesome ad, or Or how can I put this on our website somehow and then send people an email about it So they come back to the website and maybe they'll watch it and maybe they'll buy something again. That's, that's just always the way that I think, and in our Current economic state across the globe, i don't think it's a bad thing to focus on profitability. Profitability in some ways is, is everything. There's not an unlimited amount of money to borrow or, you know, an unlimited capital to be invested in you. That's just the way it is now 100% so Talk.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about product media. So let's say now, gotten, found my, found my product, i found my colorways And they're in production. I'm getting that first batch sent over for media. What type of images work best for you guys? Should I be doing, obviously, like you've done with the? I don't know how you do them, how you make it look like someone's actually got the gloves on. I don't guess that's some kind of Studio that does that for you. But can you just give me some high-level financial You know just the hundreds, is it thousands, hundreds of thousands to get a shoot done like the ones you guys have got? Should I be including some, you know, real-life imagery in that shoot? should I have like one of those images that they have on Amazon that kind of Points out all the benefits of each? is what would you suggest?
Speaker 1:now I Will say. I will say that We have done extensive shoots. We just had three shoots where we flew bear out to meet with three of our all-star MLB pros, three of our most well-known outfielders in New York In half who just want to gold glove in Chicago, etc. We went out on location, had these shoots and all. but I want to give you a window Into the start of things, okay. Hmm, bruce Bolt started. When Bruce Bolt started, and it's not to say that we don't still do this in some way to these debt to this day. I've made ads this way. When Bruce Bolt started, the way we did product photography was that Guard, that's bears dad. He would go upstairs And he'd take out his iPhone and he'd take pictures with bear having the equipment on.
Speaker 2:And then he goes straight.
Speaker 1:Yeah, put on the glove and put it up against the wall and turn it like this, do it like that, take a picture of it. Okay, now let's take those photos. Let's you know how do you do that when I'm on a Mac, it's like air. Anyway, you send it to your computer. Air, it's not your plug, but whatever it is airdrop. You airdrop it and take it from your phone, airdrop it to the laptop, go straight into Canva. Okay, now that we're here in Canva, look at our fancy editing software. Here We're gonna remove that background. And then what are we gonna do with it? We're gonna put it right on that website. That process cost absolutely nothing, because they already had the, they already had the cell phone, they already had the white background. It's just their wall. And then they've removed it in Canva. That's like five bucks a month. Get your canvas subscription. That you would be surprised. You'd be surprised how far that process Took Bruce Bolt in the early days. And I, i wouldn't encourage anything, anything else, unless unless let's say Let's say, somebody's got a camera, your neighbor's got a camera, your buddy's got a key, knows He knows what he's doing to some extent. Okay, great, invite him over, feed him dinner, and then let's pull that thing out and and and let's, let's, let's put a, let's put a sheet up on the back wall And let's do some cool movement and I'll wear it, and you'll wear it, and then we'll figure out something cool to do with it. And then, great, you give it to me. Oh, you don't know how to edit video mean either. Great, i'll open this AI tool and we'll see what we can make of it. You know, i'll open up cap cut. I'll download cap cut. That I that I never used with TikTok, i'll download that thing. Let's see what cap cut can do. There's a million ways. There's a million ways to do it and and not outpace Your runway that the reason that this is important is that I know I know of a of a brand founder right now Incredible product. Okay, didn't necessarily pick the right customer, the right community. Then exactly have the messaging dialed in, that's an incredible product. Okay, incredible product. Right now they're bleeding. They're bleeding every month. Let's say, let's take on some money. Hey, let's make this incredible YouTube. Incredible, creative, fantastic assets. I mean it just make you cry. They're so good. I mean, they're phenomenal. I mean it looks like a movie, they're cinematic quality, okay, and they're bleeding. They're bleeding, but at the end of the day, this really is business. So we got to make sure that line is going up and to the right and that we've got profit at the end of the day. So I would say, finn, get that iPhone out and get creative. Brother, i think it's time and and and any more. There's so much that you can do with it. A lot of people may not even know. They may not even know the difference.
Speaker 2:After a decade ago, when I was messing around with Magento, we were quoting apps at 60,000 per platform iOS, android designed and developed, starting from and companies were buying them because it was such an incredible return on investment. Now, in today's world, in the world of Shopify, tapkai exists and it flawed me when I heard that they were going to offer you The ability to have an app in under four weeks. Not only that, that, they design it for you at least the first version And show it to you with a business case without you having to spend a penny. Seriously, you can go and check it out Push notifications, retention, loyalty It's all at your doorstep. Yeah, i think you're right. And on, just on a lifestyle stuff, you guys primarily use just a kind of the glove. Not much lifestyle imagery you use in your banners and in other places on the website, but not so much on the product pages, that something you've tested or you just you just use the gloves because that's what what tends to work best anyway, That's what's easiest for us to shoot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's why we do it. Now I will say I will say, don't ask me who it is, don't ask me who it is. But I found out that I was a friend of a friend college student at a local college. I mean, let's say what college he goes to? local college, great guy, guy with a camera walking around on campus. Okay, we're getting a few more lifestyle things now. Okay, found him, diamond in the rough. Okay, this guy, he's phenomenal, he's fantastic. There's no way I'll tell anybody who he is. I want to keep him in my pocket forever. I wanted to live here forever and work with us forever. This guy's fantastic. We're getting a few more lifestyle images now.
Speaker 2:It makes him good. What do you? what do you think like? gives him that edge. What do you like?
Speaker 1:He's obviously he's creative, he's totally willing to run on the fly, let's just try it, let's do it. And that kind of attitude Let me you know. For example, he just say, well, i'm not really good at product photography, but here we go, let's just try it, let's just do it. And that kind of attitude, the willingness to learn, the willingness to try, the willingness to experiment, all of that has has led to him having incredible skills, especially developed for his age. And so this guy, to me he's like my right hand man. I just I can't, i got to keep this guy. He's like my secret weapon. You know, he's a college kid. He's a college kid walking around with a camera.
Speaker 2:Okay, you're the new thank you, and he's. he's the guy on the road getting all the stories right, exactly.
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly, so that that spirit, that willingness to try, has been really successful.
Speaker 2:Nice. Okay, so I have a recap. I have my samples, I've got the right product and I have taken some scrappy but effective product photography. I have a website that's going to be Shopify. That's a given. Where am I wasting my time and money and effort and where am I not with the website? Do I do landing pages? Do I create advanced funnels? Do I keep it simple? Do I over invest in our homepage video? What am I? What's my setup for for for launch? Would you suggest?
Speaker 1:I have taken great inspiration from Bart Zeff over at Dad Gang. If you go check out this guy's website, is that the hats? right? It's the hats, dad. Gang has this guy. He gets them on everybody. I'm really trying to pry the secret to his sauce out of him. I want to know how you keep getting all your. They're everywhere. They're everywhere. They're on NFL players, they're on MLB players. Everybody's wearing them. What's the secret to the sauce? He says, yeah, there's no secret, they just buy them. They buy them and they wear them. I love this. I love this. He said that their whole website was made made with Canva. All the images that are made on, made with Canva. All the images that's that's using their email marketing, made with Canva. I don't think he said this specifically, but my, my guess is that he's got a free theme that he's running it on. I don't know that. I can't say that. I can't say that for sure, but I wouldn't doubt it. You know, I wouldn't doubt it. I actually I talked with. I talked with a CRO expert the other day. I told him, yeah, we're considering a website, what we would do with it, et cetera. He said don't do that, Don't waste your time on that. He said just go pick a free theme. If you amplify, two point no themes, they're great. They're great. Just go pick one. Just pick one Here. I'll tell you which one I like. Just use that, Use that And then we'll test, We'll make some iterations from there. Don't go do this, pay a bunch of money and get into this month. Just pick a free theme. I love that. I love that. So I say I say Finn, bro, they'll pick you a free theme that you like, brother, and get that product on that site And let's leave the landing pages and the custom video and this and that pop up coming from here and there And let's leave that for later. We've got to get some products up on there and get that cash register going, bro. A 24 seven website cash register. That's a great thing is that it never sleeps. It's always collecting money for you if you got traffic coming to it. So I'd say, pick it out and let's roll.
Speaker 2:So keep it simple, just focus on the basics. Guess some sales, or don't you know? That's also a possibility, but let's hope for yes.
Speaker 1:That's a feedback. You're not getting sales. That's helpful feedback too.
Speaker 2:What are you doing? that instance right? Let's take it there for a minute. Your expectations exceed your reality in sales. You think it can do better. You don't think it's market demand. You think you've got the right product. What do you look at first? So let's say I do all of these things right. I get the product up. I do that. I get the basic website up, i start running some ads And it doesn't seem to be going as well as I think it should go First. I think it's two sides to that question. One, how do you know how well it should go? Two, what do you do if it doesn't go that well?
Speaker 1:I think it's about everybody I've ever talked to Their conversion rate. It always falls somewhere in between 1. Something. On the low end, let's say let's just call it 1.8, maybe 1.5 if you're really down there. It always falls somewhere in between 1. Something And then on the high end high high end a six. It's probably more like four on the high high end, but just about everybody is falling right there. So if you're walking away from a day with a 2% conversion rate, don't feel so bad. You just need to get more people to the website. That's the trick. Your website, it may not be that bad. You just need to get more people there so that you can collect more cash at the end of the day. So I would say you need to fall somewhere in that range. Hopefully you got like a two and you probably if you end up with like a five or six. Now you know for sure you gotta get more people there because your conversion rate is huge, okay. Secondly, if things are not going right, your expectations have exceeded reality. What I always think first is the clarity of this website, the clarity of the messaging, the clarity of the design. Am I clearly telling people what I want them to do When it comes to design. We all end up being patrons of the arts at some point. We want it to look cool and feel cool, and it just blows you away with how awesome it looks, and you probably paid somebody thousands of dollars that graduated with a graphic design degree to do it. Okay, you got it just the way you want. At the end of the day, what matters most is do people know what this business is? Do they know what my product does? Do they know what I want them to do? Hopefully, above the fold, right away when people reach your website, there's a giant button in the middle of the screen that says shop now, buy now. Hopefully there's words, not just a fancy, cool logo, but words that actually says what the business is. Is this Finns Gorilla grips? Finns, crossfit grips? It's very clear. What is it? Oh, it's Bolly's Best GRIPS, i don't know whatever you call it, but hopefully it says CrossFit grips in there And then, right above that button, let's tell them find your grips, whatever it is. I think about it this way, fin, when you're getting on an airplane. There's all different kind of airplanes. Some of the seats are small, some of them are big. Sometimes you get a fancy meal, sometimes you get no meal. What they spend an immense amount of time on is telling you where to go and when you leave to go there. Before you get on, they say look at your number. You cannot come on unless your number X. Now we're taking X through Y. Now we're taking seat 20 through 30. What's your number? Can you come in? Your seat is B33. They're ultra clear on where you're supposed to go and what you're supposed to do. That's what they're doing in every flight, every flight, every commercial flight that's happening on the earth right now. They're being exceedingly clear about what they want you to do, where they want you to go. We have to be the same way with our website. We have to tell them what this is, why they need it and what they're supposed to do with it. And if you've got a cool website and you're happy with the way it looks, but it's not getting enough sales, that's what I would go to first.
Speaker 2:That's super smart And, yeah, the product has to remain the hero. That always stuck with me from a guy called David Ogle, who'll be a British advertising man, who said about the advert isn't the hero, the product is always the hero. And that was a nod towards don't over design, keep it simple, make sure the product is a star. Same thing in our grocery stores or supermarkets over in the UK, or just the shelves themselves the signage isn't particularly glamorous and well an over designed and you don't think, wow, that shelf looks really cool. The product on the shelf might look cool But, like you said, everything else around it is there as an information. And I do think that we've got lost a little bit in our websites now, where we just over design the shit out of them because it looks cool and because designers get bored and they're like I've done this 10 years, i'm gonna make something crazy now, whereas someone like Barry Hott I think his name is make ugly ads and things like that. There is some truth to that. Okay, so we've got the website pinned, got product and I have got some good raw photography, got some good raw videos and feedback that I can use. What do I optimize for? to move the needle. Do I need to get UGC? Do I need to focus on getting reviews? Should I double down email marketing? Where do I go next? In terms of the final we're starting, the tap is on. Where should I invest most of my time? What's working for you?
Speaker 1:I think. well, i'll just say this I think the easiest win in all of e-commerce is email and SMS marketing. And if I had to refine it even from there, i would say the easiest win in all of e-commerce is SMS marketing. Because, you don't have to be Shakespeare, you don't have to be long-winded. If you can put a few words together and push send, you will make lots of dollars. That's just the way it goes. A lot of these services you talk with Postgreif, you talk with Sendlane. Maybe not so much of the others, but some of these services provide incredible customer service and if you're setting your business up, they'll do it for you. I know, jimmy at Sendlane, that they'll bend over backwards to make sure that you succeed. I'll be honest with you, i don't. The guy has helped me out so many times. I'm always asking him these questions. He'll come back with paragraphs. This is the CEO man. Come back with paragraphs.
Speaker 2:I know this is 100%, absolutely true, because I DMed him this weekend just gone. This is Monday. We're recording this. I DMed him this weekend On a Sunday. He DMed me back within five minutes Exactly exactly.
Speaker 1:He's a good dude. I think email and especially SMS marketing is the easiest win in all of e-commerce. Once you set up your flows, they don't have to be brilliant, they don't have to be well-designed, they just have to have something in there that makes sense and gives people a link to buy again. Once you set those up, they can make money for you forever. Should you adjust them? Should you check them? Of course, of course, but there's also 12 other pots cooking in every business And so you can't watch every pot like a hawk. Email and SMS is one of the easiest wins that can be had. I would also say, especially early on. I love this about Bruce Bolt, our founder Bear. He was working the phones every single day for years When people would call and have a question customer service, where's my order? Why is my? what's wrong with my glove? I ordered this one and I got that one. Bear would work the phones as a teenager, answer those questions and get them results, and what that allowed is for extreme transparency all the way to the top. What's going on in our business? What are people struggling with? What do they not understand? What do we need to explain more clearly, what processes are broken, et cetera. So I love, i love for founders and people at the top to be involved in customer service to some degree. They have some kind of interaction. I think that also gives people a real good. It just gives them a. It puts a good taste in their mouth when they have a problem and they the founder of this company replied to my email And that's amazing. It makes people feel great. So I think there's also some, there's some credit to doing that as well and being involved in customer service, i would say. I would say. Lastly, i would say going above and beyond for a few specific relationships that can do you so much good over the long haul. Early on, with Bruce Bolt, they made a. They had a good relationship with a certain coach that was in the MLB And he leveraged that relationship. They talked with him, talked to him about the business, showed him the gloves, asked him his opinion And then, before you know it, that investment, that relationship, led to MLB players having Bruce Bolt batting gloves trying them out. Oh, he just he's a hitting coach. Yeah, i want you to try these gloves. Yeah, i got a family friend, you know, back in Austin who's making these and investing in a few specific relationships going above and beyond can pay huge dividends in the long haul And it reminds me that there's been a few points that you've mentioned along this journey.
Speaker 2:Bit about Bear, kind of back when he started this conversation, iterating on the gloves and, like you know, working out different bits and bobs and putting them together and being a bit of a mad scientist with all which reminded me of I think it was Bowerman, the Nike, the Nike coach of Phil Knight, the founder and Nike. He was his running coach and he did the exact same thing with the shoes and was doing all these crazy things. I think he even used, like horse skin and things like that, you know, just making shoes out of melons and whatever else you could find, just to see if it would work. And then, and then what you just said there was the kind of keeping one ear to the ground with the customers and hearing the feedback and iterating and then giving it to coaches and and, and you know, there's a lot of similarities between what they did and how they grew their company And what it sounds like you're doing, which is awesome We've got. We've got so little time left and I have at least three hours more of questioning, so what I think would be really helpful for me again very selfishly, is just to a quick fire because there's no way that I want to let you walk away without getting some of these answers. So the huge topics, deeply complex. So the caveat being here is you know the and I appreciate we're not going to get into the weeds of it. So what ad should I run? How many? how diverse? keep it simple. Asc campaigns go deep, get loads of creative done. Where should I land?
Speaker 1:Do you think I would? I would say start with product on white, product on white, and then iterate from there. Make a carousel, you know, run a, run a DPA ad, start with all the simple wins. Start with all the simple wins And I would say, yeah, you can run broad and also, but don't be afraid to take it 2014, 2017 style and pick out some audiences that you think are going to work. You know, they're crossfitters who live in Bali, and you know, et cetera, et cetera. It's people who drink myclobe light, you know, or or whatever. You know, whatever it is. Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to experiment. Great thing is with Facebook, you can spend a little money and you can start getting results right away. So you take what works and you iterate from there.
Speaker 2:How good is it? How good? how confident are you in Facebook? Let's say you went into a new. Let's say you made football clubs right. Same name, same same Bruce Bolt clubs, but football. How confident would you be in just spinning out of Facebook ad and be like this is going to convert? I mean it might not be first batch profitable but it's going to, it's going to find customers for me Like. Would you just be 100% confident that you know you're going to get customers Absolutely?
Speaker 1:not, and I've learned this. I've learned this over the years the things that I am so sure that they will work, oftentimes they don't, and actually this just happened this week. I was talking with our media buyers. Today, this ad that I hated. I didn't even want us to run it. I didn't like it so much And I thought there's no way this will make us money. It's our number one performing prospecting ad right now, and so what I've learned is that you make the ads and you let the customers decide. You let the customers and Facebook decide what works and where to run it and where to show it, and they they prove that out by giving us dollar bills. So I'm never sure. I'm never sure what's going to work, what audience is going to work, what campaign set up? I'm really not my. The thing that I fall back on again and again is let's make better ads, let's make better creative and less test.
Speaker 2:Product packaging important or not?
Speaker 1:Depends. Depends on what kind of product you're selling. I like high end, i like going up market, and if you are doing that, then absolutely it matters If you go high end in every way. All of those touches make a difference in the end.
Speaker 2:Product price point Start high. If you have a good quality product, that's different. come down if it doesn't sell, or just try and find a middle ground where you think it will sell.
Speaker 1:Start high and then figure out where it'll sell. If you can't sell it, you better figure out a way to sell it. There are some discounts that figure out how to move that product and get your money back. But I would say, start high. Melon hats is a great example of this. CrossFit community loves them. They sell 70 to $80 trucker hats. They will buy 70 to $80 trucker hats unless they're better quality. You won't ruin them by sweating in them over and over and over again. So I like to take that as an example and start high.
Speaker 2:Product diversification. How quick I want to already. I want to innovate and add about six other products to our range. I am putting my own brakes on, but it's really tough. I really want to add these products in. I haven't even started selling the first one. When is a good time to do it? When?
Speaker 1:you have significant success with one, when you've created a real win, you've got real movement, you've got real momentum going for one product, then, yeah, let's solve some other problems for the same audience that already loves us, that we already paid to acquire. Now let's solve some more problems for them. Let's add some more skews The hardest thing for me, because I've got shiny objects syndrome. I'm always drawn about by everything, but we really are a batting glove company And so, at the end of the day, we need to sell batting gloves.
Speaker 2:Final question How do I reduce the AOV and LTV of the customer? This is a product that perhaps they buy once every 18 months. On a good day they might own multiple pairs if I do slight variations of them, But realistically it's not a huge turnover of product. Do I add a couple of other smaller products that got really good margins that I know just kind of. They might not be the most innovative products, but they're things that people buy day in, day out and slap a brand on it, or is that a mistake?
Speaker 1:If your AOV is low and it's going to be 18 months before they purchase again, you better find a way to bundle it up. You better find a way to add some other things in there that are going to give you greater margin. I've actually been talking with this founder who is experiencing a similar problem. Of course he's got a really high end product, but it's hard. It's hard to get people to purchase and his margins aren't great, and so you got to find a way to bundle it up, get some other things in there, some easy wins for yourself, so that you can take home a few more dollar bills at the end of the day. That's a. I'm glad you're thinking about that And you run off like a Wild West cowboy, shooting up the CrossFit community with your products. That's why it's to think about. You got to have your numbers down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big time. Creativity of an artist, mind of accountants, what it says on my bio. believe in that contribution margin. shout out to Taylor Holiday for giving me all the free fricking tools to run my potential business. Sure, Yeah, i'm all in that. I must wine and dine and dash. We're going to draw it into a closer. You've been fantastic, motivational to say the least. Pleasure to discuss this topic with, and I would relish the opportunity to do it again. If you're not on mentor bus or whatever that thing's called, you should be, because you're a great. you should be given the way we get stuff for free. more, rather, where can people find you and where can people find Bruce Bolt products?
Speaker 1:You can find me on Twitter Ecom Cowboy. That's Ecom, with two M's ECOMM underscore cowboy, And I'm not on mentor pass. And the thing is you can even call me for free If you DM me. I drive home, I drive home. I have a long commute home, two, three times a week. If you DM me, you weren't talking, We'll get on.
Speaker 2:You don't drive, You ride right You go, i drive, i drive. I drive.
Speaker 1:I drive, i drive. This is my steel horse, this is my steel. It's called a truck. Hey, if you want to talk, i'll be in my truck. Dm me, we can talk. And then, of course, you can find Bruce Bolt batting gloves at bruceboltus. If you play baseball or softball, you need to be on them.